I would definitely not have done that.
“I did what I did because all life is sacred. But when the object of your actions does not share that belief… I fear I have served the present by sacrificing the future.” -Lennier, Babylon 5
Amundson, a kindergarten teacher who has received CPR and first-aid training through school emergency planning, moved without hesitation once the cuffs came off.
Good to hear we’re still only arresting the violent criminals and rapists. /s
Nah, I’d let him twitch. That’s what he’d do, except he’d laugh, too.
All ICE agents are pure evil and deserve death. There are no good ICE agents. Period. Feel free to disagree with me, but you’ll never change my mind.
No, you’re 100% correct.
Shoulda let the bastard die…
Well, I have to commend them on their compassion. I’m not sure I would have done the same; and that’s being an epileptic myself…
What stayed with Amundson most, she said, was not the adrenaline of the moment but the realization that came while she was holding the agent’s head in her hands and keeping his airway open.
“I was hit so hard with the fact that this man would not do this for me,” she said.
Her mind went immediately to Renee Good.
I feel the same way. I got to the part where she unholstered his gun and wondered to myself if I would have that same grace.
It’s been interesting to see the debate back and fourth over whether this was the right move. The moral ‘you should help another human being in need’ vs the logical ‘don’t aid the ‘enemy’, one less person against you+family’…
It’s such a difficult decision; knowing they wouldn’t help you if roles were reversed, and may even blame you if he doesn’t pull through. With 12h to think sbout it; I still don’t know which direction I’d go.
I do have to wonder what story the Administration is going to spin to vilify them anyway…
I mostly was thinking about it practically — it’s a pretty straightforward case to make that a federal agent feared for his life because someone handled their service weapon and that justified the use of lethal force, even by a more law-abiding federal agency during a more liberal administration.
I couldn’t. Not just because it’s ICE, but because if I didn’t manage to save him I know I’d be charged with murder.
Saving him direcrly harms his victims. By saving him you become culpable.
Indirectly*
We’ve lost “literally” already.
I mean even from a purely transactional perspective, they did the best thing they could have done in that moment.
If they let him die, a brownshirt might have taken out their frustration on them.
If they shot an ICE agent and ran, they wouldn’t have gotten that far and would have gotten the attention of the top Trump ghouls.
Whereas, by saving his life, they got better treatment, convinced a few brownshirts of the value of humanity, and a PR win for the anti-ICE coalition.
You’re not wrong. I’m only saying what my personal thought would have been.
Women like this are the reason why I still have faith in humanity. They still have the humanity that Ice has lost long ago
One wonders what that ice member is going tondo once he leaves the hospital. Will he see the error of his way? Will he visit the women he arrested and who then saved his life? Will he continue working for the SS?
Will he see the error of his way? Will he visit the women he arrested and who then saved his life? Will he continue working for the SS?
No. Maybe. Yes.
The maybe: raping them.
…I am not being sarcastic. Members of ICE are fundamentally evil, and this sort of “thanks” would be very much in line with that.
Generally I believe in helping your opponents. It’s one of the founding principles of the Red Cross as an Organisation and deeply rooted in compassion. However, what seperates fascists from other enemies, throughout history, there haven’t been much cults whose ultimate goal was death. Fascism, or more precise neonazism, is one such cult. It’s end goal can only be the end of the human race. Thus they separate humans in classes within their believe system. They believe it’s necessary to wipe out the „subhumans“. But they to it with the ideology of someone breeding cattle. Do they like their cows? I’d argue so. Will they still kill them. Naturally. A true nazi will be helped, get healthy and still kill their rescuer, because he truly believes it’s for their and everybody’s good to get killed. They view it as an act of necessity or kindness. Goebbels diaries illustrate that. So will I think it’s morally wrong on a momentary level not to help them, in the longer timeframe it’s morally wrong to give those enemies of humankind any type of respite or aid.
No. Do not help them. Ever. Let them watch as their fellow brown shirt convulses, until he doesn’t.
They let Good die, even going so far as to bar a medical professional from rendering aid.
The humane thing to do is let them suffer in their final moments. Let’s hope more agents have “medical episodes”.
This was the right move. One agent doesn’t make a material difference, letting him die wouldn’t have impeded ICE one bit. In the bigger picture, it has more of an impact as a story.
As a story it could have been an agent dying due to a medical emergency that no one could have done anything about.
This action changes it so that the detainees were caring and compassion and competent. By contrast, it exposes the agencies lack of training, falling to recognize the situation and not knowing what to do and letting detainees have control of the firearm. They showed ICE as incompetent and targetting obviously good folk.
On a smaller scale, it spares them. Who knows, maybe this event gives some of the agents involved some pause about how bad they are being.
No
That sounds like a great storyline, for a cop drama on CBS. One less agent is a net positive, no matter which way you look at it.
Who’s to say that that particular agent doesn’t later blind a protester? Or worse, kill one? Or maybe he just abducts a 5 year, and puts them on a plane to Louisiana?
They just killed another person in Minneapolis. But yeah, let’s patch up the brown shirts.
There is no logical reason to give aid or comfort to the enemy. These aren’t protesters that say mean things that we don’t like. They are a secret police, and their boot’s are on the neck’s of every person who lives in this country.
If you want to start your own club that goes around and makes sure that your oppressors are comfortable in their crusade against liberty, go right on ahead.
Helping them en masse would materially contribute to their capability, but responding to an isolated health event isn’t going to help them, certainly not more than the story as it played out undermined them.
Certainly for the detainees, this was a better outcome. They actually honored their rights after what they did, when they clearly were on a trajectory to deny them contact, and even got released.
Yeah this is going nowhere.
Aiding them in any capacity is a betrayal to all of those whose live’s ICE has taken away, destroyed.
You are not expected to enjoy the moment you let them fall. You could very well be saving an entire family by letting nature take its course.
When we become them, what’s the point of fighting them any longer?
Marvel ass logic
Dunno, guess you should ask all the allied WWII vets who became Nazis by killing them.
You do not become a Nazi by letting them die.
The primary issue with them isn’t that they don’t render first aid, it’s that they imprison innocent people in concentration camps and kill them for no reason beyond hate.
You are pushing a false equivalence.
We are so far removed from what ICE is going
Letting them die isn’t “becoming them,” it’s allowing them to face the consequences of the rules THEY are imposing. It’s Natural Selection, which they’ve chosen to not believe in. Why should we save them from themselves? Let nature take its course.
Proactive vs reactive, these dipshits are going out of their way to cause suffering and death. Watching them bleed out and die or refusing to render aid or even just offing them yourself isn’t becoming them.
Fun fact during WW2 on the Pacific front allied soldier (American, Australian, New Zealander, Canadian, etc) took to shooting surrendering or injured Japanese troops. This would usually be classified as a war crime, but there are exceptions to that rule in this case since the Japanese soldiers had a tendency of playing dead, trying to kill medics, falsely surrendering, and pulling the pins on their grenades and blowing themselves up.
One does not become their foe by reacting to them accordingly. One becomes their foe by proactively doing the same thing, like the Nazis and Soviets raping and murdering each other and the territories and people between them.
They don’t acknowledge the humanity of others, so why should they expect those without humanity to show any in return?
I replied to your other comment, too.
Something seems off about your position.
It’s like watching the Patriot, the scene where the cavalry is at the farm, and they shoot all the recovering revolutionaries. It’s just barbaric.
Civility and society are a social contract, if someone rips theirs up to free themselves from its restrictions, they also remove themselves from its protections.
Civility and society are social contracts. I let the government do its job unimpeded when it is abiding by the contract. When they aren’t, then I don’t.
The reality is that the societal contract broke down a long time ago, and the illusion of safety has been mollifying people since MLK (and likely before). There have always been fascists at the wheel, the only difference now is they are mask off and more indiscriminate.
So my question is, do we vilify every healthcare worker who did more than sit by to help a fascist? Do we demean them for doing what they thought was right? Am I ask them to be judge, jury, and executioner so that the fascists all die off?
Ah. A classic “Timmy hit me first” scenario.
You are allowed proportional force in defending yourself, so if Timmy tries to hit you you are indeed allowed to hit him back insofar as it pertains to stopping harm being done to you or others.
Nothing wrong with that. If Timmy hit me first, Timmy should expect a broken nose. That’s how you deal with bullies. It works every time, perhaps with occasional reinforcement.
It’s nice to think about things like morality, humanity, and diplomacy…in a vacuum. The world is a bastardization of that vacuum.
We know that the fascists will do anything to achieve their goals. They don’t follow court orders, they violate constitutional rights constantly.
When one of the pigs breaks down your door, kidnaps your family, ignores judge’s ruling’s ordering the release of your family, sexually assaults your women and children, chokes the men out unconscious, possibly killing some of them in the process—you would not bat an eye to see one of them squealing in pain.
It wouldn’t make you feel better, but you’d know there is one less feral pig on the streets.
I guess I am not convinced that they are all fascists. You see enemies, I see victims of fascists rulers who have used their fear to warp their minds.
I see fear in them. I see fear in you. I also never said I wouldn’t shoot them. I did say that slaughtering then when they are down is barbaric.
Your position relies on a strawman enemy and a lack of humanity. The very thing you despise in them you become.
It’s wild that we have nearly a hundred years since WW2 and we seem to forget that fear lead to all the atrocities that occured here in the name of fighting fascists.
The big thing is, I am not afraid of them. I cautious, I won’t let them harm me. But if I fear them, then they already won.
Relating this back to the story of the women who saved the pig, do not help them.
It is very simple. Every person who works with ICE is a fascist. There is no denying that. Do you really think there are “good” agents out there?
No, but in a world where we let someone die due to a medical emergency we could have assisted in, then I am not convinced there are “good” people either.
And if there are no “good” people, then what are we even fighting for?
That is horrible situation to placed in. Helping save someone who is actively trying to ruin your life and hurt you. They did the right thing, but there must be little satisfaction in helping these oppressors.
They didn’t do the right thing though. We are not in a peacetime situation where we are extending olive branches to the terrorists, in hopes of showing them our humanity. They. Do. Not. Care.
The only good fascist is the one with blue lips.
doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.
Sure. But we aren’t them. We do care. We have humanity.
Let’s not sacrifice that and lower ourselves to their level.
No. This is why democrats fail. They are not willing to do what needs to be done, to say what needs to be said, for fear of their farts not smelling like roses.
Take your high road, write a letter, and slam the nazi’s in a clever tweet.
There’s a difference between doing what needs to be done, and simply doing what they’re doing but against them.
If you start using duhumanising rhetoric, and labelling them as less than human to justify violence against them, then it won’t be long before you start expanding your definition of who isn’t human. Just like they’re doing.
What should have happened to nazi Germany, if not fight them with violence? The nazis invaded, remember. Do you not believe in self defense against an invading and occupying force? Nazis are invading your city right now, when will they be occupying your state next?
We should have genocided all of Germany? We should have killed the POWs? Not rendered aid to enemy casualties?
Generally the correct answer is, it’s complicated. If you’re arguing something is black and white you’re probably privileged enough to have never had to make one of these decisions yourself. Do I want ICE to exist? No. Do I want all conservatives to die? Also no. What’s more, people have all of 2 seconds to make these kinds of decisions and generally fall back on their training, which is to render aid first and figure out the rest later. Personally, I like that that’s what their instinct is, and I’m not going to give them shit for it
You arent seeing me complain, but I am not putting down anyone for wanting to see different. It’s complicated, like you said. You cant afford to be afraid of violence right now, or if you are, be prepared to get out of the way
If you don’t value Nazi lives you’re as bad as a Nazi killing innocent people for how they were born!!!111one
Like… I get it… But at the same time the moment we give up our humanity we are not better than they are.
Killing Nazis is reaffirming your humanity.
Get your values straight.
When is the last time your reaffirmed your humanity?
See, in my country Nazis are sufficiently afraid to make themselves known.
I’m sorry for you when you realize you are surrounded by them.
high road = dead end
What high road?
I am talking about people having a human moment during a medical emergency.
Maybe you could watch someone die in front of you, but I couldn’t.
I could kill someone if I needed to but there is a difference in defending yourself when you are in mortal danger and letting someone die.
If we become the monsters they think we are, then we won’t fix society, we will guarantee the schizm poisons the next generation when the battle is over.
you feeling any differently about this stance now?
rip alex pretti.
No. I feel miserable for Alex but maintain my position. That said, should any of the ICE agents been shot right there by anyone on the street whilst commiting a crime I wouldn’t have anything negative to say about their shooting.
ice is an enemy to which we can give no quarter. they have declared that they can came into our houses, any one of us, with no warrant, no proceedure, nothing but what they decide based on a list of criteria they will not make public, and kidnap us.
fuck ice. they are destroying families and communities, they are using children as ‘bait’ .
they cannot be saved.
let them bleed out.
I said it in a other comment.
I don’t think the world is a better place when a 1st grade teachers gut reaction is to watch someone in a medical emergency die.
I don’t think the world is a better place when a 1st grade teacher saves the fascist and they go out and kidnap a 1st grader to use as bait to send their parents to a death camp in El Salvador.
In a vacuum it’s the good thing to help someone else in need. In this case the person you’re saving is causing active harm to others.
They have proven time and time again that they don’t care about humanity. They don’t care about “doing what’s right”. There is no scorecard here. We’re to the point where they are maiming and murdering in the streets.
Just think for one second here, all of the terrible videos we’ve seen are a snowflake on top of the iceberg that is their daily crimes and abuses.
If you see an injured pig, be sure to piss on it before you pass it by.
As I think about more of your posts I can see the fear oozing out of them.
Why not shoot them as you pass? I know for me it falls into barbarism.
Better yet, since you clearly want them dead, look em up, but em down, be the big damn hero. Show me your mettle, get your ass off your keyboard, and go be a warrior.
I’ll stay behind mine and consider the long-term ramifications of all my actions and inactions. I’ll stay behind mine so that the social work I do can keep happening as atrocities pile up. We all need jobs when it comes to f defending the home front. You go be a hero, I’ll tend to the hearts and minds of those who will benefit from your sacrifice.
I’m advocating for every citizen to standby and do nothing if they come upon a wounded or sick pig.
Btw, I stopped reading after the keyboard warrior thing. Stop being weird.
What was weird about it?
I think it’s more weird that you want people to just callously walk by someone having a medical emergency. I think it’s extra weird you would expect a 1st grade teacher to have that as a default position.
I am terrified of a world where a 1st grade teacher doesn’t go strait to first aid when they are witnessing a medical emergency.
🤦🏻♀️
I think I would also help the enemy, but I don’t blame anyone if they won’t.
It’s fine to provide first aid to enemy combatants as long as they are imprisoned until the war is over.
They’ll probably charge them with assault.
She Helped an ICE Agent? TERRORIST!
-Kristi Noem!
“We believe the women used a combination of siren song and/or witchcraft to induce the seizure”
You should know that you are in no way obliged to render aid to anyone ever.
Some places have “duty to rescue” laws.
My United States is showing. Even then, I just learned that Louisiana has such a law.
Louisiana is a weird state, legally.
It’s the right thing to do, but I don’t think God appreciates his work being shit on like that
